More Catholic vs. Chick debate

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Okay, I'll attempt to address your points, but I'm only playing the Angel's Advocate. (What with a Catholic girlfriend and two Catholic family members to deal with, I'm not very eager to start a Northern Ireland war in my own back yard.) I believe Chick would make the following counter points to your statements:

<<The Roman Catholic church alone can claim to be instituted by Christ himself.>>

The Catholic church can and does make this claim, but they stretch the meaning of scripture to do so. (See below.) The Eastern Orthodox Church also makes this claim, so making the claim obviously doesn't make it true.

<<Oh-- by the way, he (Chick) said the Bible Alone is the authority. I defy you to show me were in the Bible does it say "The Bible ALONE IS OUR AUTHORITY". It does say the Bible is an authority but it also says TRADITION is also an authority.>>

If we can agree that the Bible is the word of God, then it should be self evident that God's Word supersedes any other statements or traditions made others. You, me, the Pope, or Chick for that matter. Q.E.D.

Regarding the other scripture references you sent:

<<6:52 Then the Jews who were hostile to Jesus72 began to argue with one another,73 "How can this man74 give us his flesh to eat?" 6:53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the solemn truth,75 unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood,76 you have no life77 in yourselves. 6:54 The one who eats78 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.79 6:55 For my flesh is true80 food, and my blood is true81 drink. 6:56 The one who eats82 my flesh and drinks my blood resides in me, and I in him.83 6:57 Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so the one who consumes84 me will live because of me. 6:58 This85 is the bread that came down from heaven; it is not like the bread your ancestors86 ate, but then later died.87 The one who eats88 this bread will live forever."

<<But what do those Catholics know, right Jack? They just invented it all, Isn't that what you said? Maybe you should try reading the Bible instead of bashing the church who, by the way, was promised by Christ that Evil will never prevail against it. And there is nothing in the Bible about popes or monks, right? Well lets look at what the Bible says about the Catholic churches first pope Peter the Apostle.

<<(MATHEW) CHAPTER 16:16 Simon Peter answered,18 "You are the Christ,19 the Son of the living God." 16:17 And Jesus answered him,20 "You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven! 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades(HELL)21 will not overpower it. 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on the earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you release on earth will have been released in heaven." 16:20 Then he instructed his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.22 16:16 )

<<HEY JACK, THAT SOUNDS LIKE A PRETTY GOOD ARGUMENT FOR PAPAL INFALLIBILITY WHEN CHRIST GAVE PETER THE FIRST POPE OF HIS CHURCH THE KEYS TO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, WOULDN'T YOU SAY?>>

I doubt Jack would agree, and here's why: Jesus did NOT say he was giving the keys to Peter's successors or popes in general. If I promised to pay you $1 a week, do you think I'm obligating myself to pay your descendants as well? Nowhere in the statement does Jesus say anything about infallibility. On the contrary, Jesus makes many statements indicating that all men are sinners (which contradicts any human claim of infallibility).

You should also look at the same chapter (16) verse 23. Peter tries to rebuke Jesus for predicting his death and resurrection. Jesus says to Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God but the things of men." Does this sound like words to God's infallible representative on Earth?

Keep reading Matthew to verse 18:18. Jesus tells ALL his disciples that what they bind on Earth he will bind in heaven. He even uses the plural Greek word for "you all" ("lusate", instead of the singular "lusas", which he used when addressing Peter earlier) so there is no question that he was addressing all of them. Little wonder the Vatican forbid others from translating the Bible for centuries. It undermined their monopoly.

Peter's Rock is the "foundation" of all Christianity, including the Protestant church, but the Protestant faith is built on what Jesus said and did (as reported by Peter in the Bible), not traditions or self serving dogma created by an organization that eventually inherited Peter's ministry.

<<Now Jesus said evil wouldn't prevail against his church those are Jesus own words and that's what the bible says. He also said,

<<28:19 Therefore go6 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 28:20 teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember,7 I am with you8 always, to the end of the age." >>

It's a good bet that Peter and Jesus ARE together (in heaven) until the end of the age. No argument there. What does that have to do with the Catholic church? You're assuming Jesus is NOT talking about Peter, but the Catholic System. If that's true, why does Jesus say "I'm with YOU" instead of "I'm with your CHURCH"? Like the old adage states, the devil's in the details...

If I assumed anything, it would be that Jesus is talking to Peter and any true Christian, instead of a system of men that can become corrupted over time (as the Catholic church clearly has in various times throughout its history).

Remember how mainstream Jews abandoned the word of God by refusing to accept Jesus as the messiah, forcing true believers to leave the Jewish faith and start Christianity instead? Likewise, the Catholic Church abandoned the word of God by focusing on its own welfare instead of winning souls for Christ. They persecuted heretics and enriched themselves with the confiscated loot. Are you suggesting these crimes are the actions of an infallible pope? It was the Protestant Church that picked up the broken pieces that the Vatican discarded and rebuilt the faith by urging what Jesus himself said: Follow the Word of God. Not the word of men (or rabbis, or popes or preachers). [Mark 7:6-8]

For an answer to your questions about the Eucharist, I'll refer you to our new wing devoted specifically for theological questions, called IN YOUR FACE.

*****

 

 

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